Curse

Soulfire Cleopatra · Mar 16, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

/signed I like the idea. If not for gold, then yes for zkeys. The title has already lost it's prestigue.

doomfodder · Mar 16, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

/signed

MayB I'm wrong here. But I think that we ALL agree that stored skill points that have no "outlet" also have no value. For PvE players that are already UAS, the ONLY outlet for SP are cons. And honestly if U watch the trade chat in ANY town, cons are RARELY WTB or WTS (except for the occasional DOA). So this response is intended as an ALTERNATE PRACTICAL use for stored SP.

Since most of the replies to this thread are related to economy, how about allowing players to transfer SP for $? So as not to wreak havoc on the economy, the exchange could be ACCOUNT WIDE limited to no more than say 25 SP per day. Price could be 1SP/500g = $12.5k/day. Players with a SP bank of 1000+ SP would take aver a month to deplete thier SP bank account.

This concept does a few relatively useful things...
1. rewards farmers with a little more $ (remember they are already farming $)
2. provides an alternate outlet for existing "SP bank"
3. provides an economic "stimuls package" for the non-farmer PvE'ers to actually be able to afford the PvP'ers zkeys
4. only acts as a "trickle" into existing economy that can be spent on ANYTHING in the game - even mats for armor
5. WON'T affect the price of Zkeys

MithranArkanere · Mar 16, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Only PvP characters earn Skill points both in places and at a speed that deserves Zaishen keys.

For PvE characters it would be an unnecessary extra income. They can get skill points like there is no tomorrow by farming in PvE.

rohara · Mar 16, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

My main char has Legendary Skill Hunter and 500+ useless skill points left over. All my other characters are 2+ years old and do not need to use stars of transference. (tomes make those kinda useless anyway, yes?) Cons are totally not the answer...who has enough materials to craft 500+ salvage kits and the patience to sell 500+ salvage kits? Not I. And I'm not only interested in money.

I think a good goal for SP use would be to simply substitute them for gold, faction, or trophies - things that save you money/faction/time, but not directly give you money/faction. They need to have many uses so that they benefit everyone, not just title chasers or farmers. I'd like to see unique uses across all campaigns, something like:

Core:

- Update Merchant NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase merchant items with skill points instead of gold, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you need

- Update Collector NPCs (weapons only)

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to trade skill points instead of trophies for collector weapons, cannot be salvaged, sold to NPCs, or traded, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of grinding for trophies, it saves you time on getting a basic weapon that you or your heroes need

- During Festivals, Update Festival Collector NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase festival items with skill points instead of trophies, items purchased this way cannot be salvaged, sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of grinding for trophies, it saves you money on things you want

- Update Guild Lord NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase guild hall NPCs with skill points instead of gold
Only when speaking with a PvP character, add option to purchase Stars of Transference, 2sp each, cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal Stars of Transference, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Gives PvP characters something to do with their 100% useless skill points

- Update Profession Changer NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase secondary professions with skill points instead of gold
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you need and is quite appropriate considering what this NPC does

- Update Tolkano NPCs

Add option to purchase Zaishen Keys, 5sp each, cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal Zaishen Keys, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you faction, it saves you faction on things you need and gives PvP characters something to do with their 100% useless skill points. Also, more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Prophecies:

- Update Prophecies Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Fruitcakes, Hunter's Ales, and Champagne Poppers with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Factions:

- Update Factions Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Sugary Blue Drinks, Rice Wine, and Bottle Rockets with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Elite Blessings, 1sp + 500g

Double Kurzick/Luxon faction gained by killing foes
HM only
Only offered after regular blessing has been purchased/bribed, replaces regular blessing
Why bother? More Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Update Faction Rewards NPCs

Add option to purchase Kurzick/Luxon skills, 3sp each
Add option to purchase Scrolls to Urgoz/Deep, 1sp each, cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal Scrolls, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Purchasing skills/scrolls in this way does not add to the Kurzick/Luxon titles and does not make you sacrifice faction of the opposite faction (ie. you are Kurzick and buy an Urgoz scroll, you sacrifice no Luxon faction)
Why bother? Instead of giving you faction, it saves you faction on things you need and is an alternative to sacrificing opposing faction

Nightfall:

- Update Nightfall Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Mandragor Root Cakes, Vabbian Wine, and Sparklers with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Elite Bounties, 1sp + 500g

Double Sunspear/Lightbringer points gained by killing foes
HM only
Only offered after regular bounty has been given, replaces regular bounty
Why bother? More Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Eye of the North:

- Update Eye of the North Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Fruitcakes?, Dwarven Ales, and Snowman Summoners with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Elite Blessings, 1sp + 500g

Double Vanguard/Norn/Asuran/Dwarven points gained by killing foes
HM only
Only offered after regular blessing has been given, replaces regular blessing
Why bother? More Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Update Vanguard/Norn/Asuran/Dwarven Weapon/Consumable/Armor Crafter NPCs

Add option to purchase One Time Access to this NPC, 50sp, only available to characters who do not meet the Title requirement of the NPC, access ends if you leave the district or outpost
Why bother? The restriction is stupid to begin with, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Notes:

- I see no need to update the Skill Trainers, as an alternative to buying skills already exists in the form of tomes.

- OMG ZAISHEN KEYS NOOOO!1!!one!!1!eleven!1!!1 Settle down, champs. Contrary to popular belief, the Zaishen title is not a "PvP only" title. Any PvE player can farm the Zaishen or register for the XTH and get absolutely free RPs from it every month. Why does Anet do this? Clearly, because they want the title to be available for everyone and avoid a mass QQ from PvE players. Currently, PvP players can progress through this title much quicker than PvE players. Allowing PvE players to trade skill points for keys closes the gap, and yes, initially, puts them at a great advantage, but that advantage evens out over time. (Think about how long it takes to get 5k Balth compared to how long it takes to get 5 skill points) Zaishen Keys were never meant to be used as currency, they are meant to be rewards and a means to acquire a title. The Zaishen Key market could use to be crashed further, because giving everyone a free 100k+ every month is retarded.

- I put way to much thought into this...

Yawgmoth · Mar 17, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I'd say FIRST fix the whole XP gain system that allows extreme overfarm of 1000s of SPs, and then think of more rewards for them. With the current broken system it would only encourage even more powerfarming to infinity, and all those ideas either remove gold sinks / material sinks or hurt rewarding factor of PvP rewards, all suggestions are going totally WRONG WAY.

DragonRogue · Mar 17, 2009, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Only PvP characters earn Skill points both in places and at a speed that deserves Zaishen keys.

For PvE characters it would be an unnecessary extra income. They can get skill points like there is no tomorrow by farming in PvE.

And i would say that PVP can farm balth faction just as fast as PVE can farm skill points. You have yet to provide a single arguement that doesnt sound like a PVPer trying to control his share of the one sided zkey market.

Since it is the PVErs who are buying the keys from the PVPers, and using the chest for the items it drops, this title and idea to rank the amount of balth faction a player gets, is beyond quite pointless and was a serious fail in its attempt. There is nothing a PVPer really needs money for since all is supplied for you with balth faction. If the PVErs didnt want the chest, for whatever reason, the keys would be completely worthless. We already have access to zkeys thru XTH predictions, same as PVPers who also use the XTH, so why does this idea bother PVPers so much, unless they NEED the PVErs to buy them, and they want to control this market as best they can?

MithranArkanere · Mar 17, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

There are no places in PvP with crowds of enemies that love to stick around you like in PvE. The maximum possible is 12 in the Zaishen Elite.

I can kill 100 Vaettir in less than 5 minutes. You can't kill 100 PvP NPCs in that time.
On top of that, they can add additional features to ensure that the Experience gain is PvP limited like Balthazar faction:
- No XP gain in the isle of nameless.
- XP gain cap in the Zaishen challenge and Elite zaishen to 6000Exp per day. Or no gain at all.
- Ban the use of Stars of Transference.

And ding, done.

Tullzinski · Mar 17, 2009, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

My main char has Legendary Skill Hunter and 500+ useless skill points left over. All my other characters are 2+ years old and do not need to use stars of transference. (tomes make those kinda useless anyway, yes?) Cons are totally not the answer...who has enough materials to craft 500+ salvage kits and the patience to sell 500+ salvage kits? Not I. And I'm not only interested in money.

I think a good goal for SP use would be to simply substitute them for gold, faction, or trophies - things that save you money/faction/time, but not directly give you money/faction. They need to have many uses so that they benefit everyone, not just title chasers or farmers. I'd like to see unique uses across all campaigns, something like:

Core:

- Update Merchant NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase merchant items with skill points instead of gold, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you need

- Update Collector NPCs (weapons only)

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to trade skill points instead of trophies for collector weapons, cannot be salvaged, sold to NPCs, or traded, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of grinding for trophies, it saves you time on getting a basic weapon that you or your heroes need

- During Festivals, Update Festival Collector NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase festival items with skill points instead of trophies, items purchased this way cannot be salvaged, sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of grinding for trophies, it saves you money on things you want

- Update Guild Lord NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase guild hall NPCs with skill points instead of gold
Only when speaking with a PvP character, add option to purchase Stars of Transference, 2sp each, cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal Stars of Transference, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Gives PvP characters something to do with their 100% useless skill points

- Update Profession Changer NPCs

Add "Skill Point Rewards" tab, which allows you to purchase secondary professions with skill points instead of gold
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you need and is quite appropriate considering what this NPC does

- Update Tolkano NPCs

Add option to purchase Zaishen Keys, 5sp each, cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal Zaishen Keys, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you faction, it saves you faction on things you need and gives PvP characters something to do with their 100% useless skill points. Also, more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Prophecies:

- Update Prophecies Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Fruitcakes, Hunter's Ales, and Champagne Poppers with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Factions:

- Update Factions Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Sugary Blue Drinks, Rice Wine, and Bottle Rockets with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Elite Blessings, 1sp + 500g

Double Kurzick/Luxon faction gained by killing foes
HM only
Only offered after regular blessing has been purchased/bribed, replaces regular blessing
Why bother? More Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Update Faction Rewards NPCs

Add option to purchase Kurzick/Luxon skills, 3sp each
Add option to purchase Scrolls to Urgoz/Deep, 1sp each, cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal Scrolls, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Purchasing skills/scrolls in this way does not add to the Kurzick/Luxon titles and does not make you sacrifice faction of the opposite faction (ie. you are Kurzick and buy an Urgoz scroll, you sacrifice no Luxon faction)
Why bother? Instead of giving you faction, it saves you faction on things you need and is an alternative to sacrificing opposing faction

Nightfall:

- Update Nightfall Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Mandragor Root Cakes, Vabbian Wine, and Sparklers with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Elite Bounties, 1sp + 500g

Double Sunspear/Lightbringer points gained by killing foes
HM only
Only offered after regular bounty has been given, replaces regular bounty
Why bother? More Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Eye of the North:

- Update Eye of the North Merchant NPCs (in addition to the Core Merchant changes)

Under "Skill Point Rewards" tab, add option to purchase Fruitcakes?, Dwarven Ales, and Snowman Summoners with skill points, items purchased this way cannot be sold to NPCs, traded, or stacked with normal items, but can be put in storage and used by any character on the account
Why bother? Instead of giving you money, it saves you money on things you want, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Elite Blessings, 1sp + 500g

Double Vanguard/Norn/Asuran/Dwarven points gained by killing foes
HM only
Only offered after regular blessing has been given, replaces regular blessing
Why bother? More Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

- Update Vanguard/Norn/Asuran/Dwarven Weapon/Consumable/Armor Crafter NPCs

Add option to purchase One Time Access to this NPC, 50sp, only available to characters who do not meet the Title requirement of the NPC, access ends if you leave the district or outpost
Why bother? The restriction is stupid to begin with, and more Guild Wars, less Grind Wars

Notes:

- I see no need to update the Skill Trainers, as an alternative to buying skills already exists in the form of tomes.

- OMG ZAISHEN KEYS NOOOO!1!!one!!1!eleven!1!!1 Settle down, champs. Contrary to popular belief, the Zaishen title is not a "PvP only" title. Any PvE player can farm the Zaishen or register for the XTH and get absolutely free RPs from it every month. Why does Anet do this? Clearly, because they want the title to be available for everyone and avoid a mass QQ from PvE players. Currently, PvP players can progress through this title much quicker than PvE players. Allowing PvE players to trade skill points for keys closes the gap, and yes, initially, puts them at a great advantage, but that advantage evens out over time. (Think about how long it takes to get 5k Balth compared to how long it takes to get 5 skill points) Zaishen Keys were never meant to be used as currency, they are meant to be rewards and a means to acquire a title. The Zaishen Key market could use to be crashed further, because giving everyone a free 100k+ every month is retarded.

- I put way to much thought into this...

/SIGNED

12chars

Floski · Mar 17, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

If you want SP >> Keys, it should be like 25:1 not, 5:1.

rohara · Mar 17, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floski

If you want SP >> Keys, it should be like 25:1 not, 5:1.

why? 5-15 minutes in halls or gvg and you've got 5k balth faction, whereas you'd have to farm something like 300 raptors in HM to get 5 skill points. 25:1 is hardly fair.

go cubs · Mar 17, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Yes, but if u think about it there are tons of people with crazy amounts of skill points on their characters....If it were 5sp for every zkey i would get 200 keys just on my main...think of how many zkeys would get into circulation that way....you could probably max out the zkey rank many times over from the amount of zkeys that got everyone...then again thats what xth does everymonth :0....

Yawgmoth · Mar 18, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

When XTH creates a problem of too many Free ZKeys it should be just removed instead of producing even more Free ZKeys to even further ruin their value.

And you can't make skillpoints worthwhile with keeping the current rate at which farmers can get them. Rewarding factor of a mission book or quest chain giving say 80,000xp will still be PATHETIC if farmers can make that in 20 minutes, making money from drops at the same time.

go cubs · Mar 18, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Well the thing about xth is that it makes sense and zkeys shouldnt be priced so high in the first place....PvP dont need cash first of all...2nd of all, only reason they are priced high is for title, before title the keys were 2.5k each...and now there is more QQ about them being 3.5k each...Who cares! quit QQ and live with it

Yawgmoth · Mar 18, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Lol @ PvP don't need cash.
Reward Points are what is given to the top finishers of a monthly tounrnament and they replaced the RealWorld prizes. They *were intended* to be worth much, thats why the whole Zaishen Title and Monthly tonics drops were added.

XTH wasn't a big problem originally as very few people knew about it and were actively using it. But now it became obvious it's broken.

RedNova88 · Mar 18, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

It would be nice if something else was done that let us make active use of them.

However:

Quote:

/notsigned
Novel, but the amount of xp people get from certain farms just kills the implimentation of any sort of plan like this.

It's the truth. Unless they put a cap on it like they do with Zaishen Challenge then people will just farm their brains out. I can get a skill point every 3 minutes from the raptor farm, it would just be too easy unless the exchange ratio was like 50 points for X amount of gold/faction.

A11Eur0 · Mar 18, 2009, 07:41 AM // 07:41

I want to trade 5 skill points for one z-key directly. Why? Because not only is the Zaishen title ungodly expensive to buy for, I don't want to go out and spend more money on mule accounts just for XTH predictions to just barely scratch the surface of r6 or higher.

Maybe 10-1 will be better, but make sure you announce it before hand so all these idiots saving unregulated zkeys as currency instead of trader-regulated Ectos don't collectively bomb the forums with QQ threads saying their accumulated wealth just went 1929 on them.

DragonRogue · Mar 18, 2009, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

It would be nice if something else was done that let us make active use of them.

However:

It's the truth. Unless they put a cap on it like they do with Zaishen Challenge then people will just farm their brains out. I can get a skill point every 3 minutes from the raptor farm, it would just be too easy unless the exchange ratio was like 50 points for X amount of gold/faction.

You forget that the Zchallenge isnt the only place to get balth faction. This is stupid. AB can go on for days, same as GVG, TA,and RA. So if these arent capped then why should the skill points or exp PVErs get be capped? And we werent talking about 1-1 ratio on key-skill points. I stated 5-10 points which still would equal about the same amount of keys per hour that the balth faction totals can acquire, even thru solo farming.

rohara · Mar 18, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by go cubs

Yes, but if u think about it there are tons of people with crazy amounts of skill points on their characters....If it were 5sp for every zkey i would get 200 keys just on my main...think of how many zkeys would get into circulation that way....you could probably max out the zkey rank many times over from the amount of zkeys that got everyone...then again thats what xth does everymonth :0....

when zkeys were introduced, pvp players had mass quantities of balth faction built up because there was nothing to spend it on at the time except for tournament tokens. they, too, had a temporary advantage.

regardless, i think you missed the part where i said keys bought with SP cannot be traded, so they aren't being put into circulation. you would only trade for the keys if you want zchest loot or the title. in turn, this would decrease the demand for zkeys and the price of zkeys would also decrease, which would make the XTH less of a free monthly feed bag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedNova88

It's the truth. Unless they put a cap on it like they do with Zaishen Challenge then people will just farm their brains out. I can get a skill point every 3 minutes from the raptor farm, it would just be too easy unless the exchange ratio was like 50 points for X amount of gold/faction.

the zaishen challenge isn't capped because of zaishen keys - it is capped because it's training, it's practically pve and you shouldn't earn balth faction in pve.

the faction you get there is peanuts compared to real pvp. farming zaishen is to pvp as farming pre-searing is to pve. high end pvpers earn dozens of zkeys per day. even at 5 SP per zkey, pve'ers would have a hard time keeping up. turning in a full hero's handbook in HM still would not get you 5 SP, if my math is correct.

go cubs · Mar 18, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

when zkeys were introduced, pvp players had mass quantities of balth faction built up because there was nothing to spend it on at the time except for tournament tokens. they, too, had a temporary advantage.
regardless, i think you missed the part where i said keys bought with SP cannot be traded, so they aren't being put into circulation. you would only trade for the keys if you want zchest loot or the title. in turn, this would decrease the demand for zkeys and the price of zkeys would also decrease, which would make the XTH less of a free monthly feed bag.
.

My bad must have missed that...

As to pvp players not needing money Yawgmoth...U said how they get money...from Rps but...why do they need money? honestly a pvp only player has no need for cash :0

warrior running · Mar 19, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

/sign haha it would be awesome i could use my 5k+ skill points and get bunchs of zkeys....jk this horrile idea /notsign